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Russia SU-57; in a dogfight, what would this fighter be using against its enemy?

In a close-range dogfight, the Russian Su-57 “Felon” would rely on a mix of high-maneuverability tactics and specialized weapons designed for air-to-air combat. Here's what it would bring to the fight:

🔫 Primary Dogfight Weapons

9A1-4071K 30mm Autocannon

Fires up to 1,500 rounds per minute

Effective range: ~2 km

Ideal for close-quarters engagements when missiles are impractical

Short-Range Air-to-Air Missiles

Likely candidates: R-74M2 or K-74M

Infrared-guided, high off-boresight capability

Compatible with helmet-mounted sights for snap targeting

🚀 Supporting Air-to-Air Arsenal

K-77M (R-77M) Medium-Range Missiles

Active radar homing

AESA radar seeker for better resistance to jamming

Designed to rival the AIM-120D used by NATO fighters

Long-Range Missiles (e.g., R-37M)

Not typically used in dogfights due to size and minimum engagement range

More suited for standoff attacks against AWACS or bombers

🛡️ Tactical Advantages in a Dogfight

Supermaneuverability

Thanks to 3D thrust vectoring and aerodynamic design

Allows post-stall maneuvers like the “Cobra” or “Kulbit” for evasion and positioning

Stealth & Sensor Fusion

Reduced radar cross-section helps delay detection

Advanced IRST (infrared search and track) system for passive tracking

Electronic Warfare & Countermeasures

DIRCM (Directed Infrared Countermeasures) to spoof incoming IR missiles

Radar jamming and decoys to disrupt enemy lock-ons

The Su-57’s dogfight loadout is designed to be flexible—able to engage at visual range with cannon and IR missiles, while also supporting medium-range missile duels. Its agility and sensor suite give it a theoretical edge in close combat, though its real-world performance remains largely untested.

Want to compare this with how the F-22 or Rafale would handle a similar engagement?

Who would win?

In a pure dogfight scenario—visual range, guns and short-range missiles—the winner between the Su-57, F-22 Raptor, and Dassault Rafale would depend on several interlocking factors: pilot skill, situational awareness, electronic warfare, and tactical doctrine. But let’s break down the aircraft capabilities head-to-head:

🥇 Stealth & Sensor Fusion

F-22 Raptor: Best-in-class stealth. Its radar cross-section is famously described as “marble-sized” from the front. This gives it a massive edge in first-look, first-shot engagements.

Su-57: Stealth is weaker. It relies more on radar-absorbent coatings than shaping, and its exposed engine nozzles increase radar visibility.

Rafale: Not stealthy in the fifth-gen sense. It has reduced radar signature but is still detectable much earlier than the others.

Edge: F-22

🌀 Maneuverability

Su-57: Equipped with 3D thrust vectoring and designed for supermaneuverability. It can perform post-stall maneuvers like the “Cobra” and “Kulbit.”

F-22: Also has thrust vectoring and extreme agility, but slightly less exotic than Su-57’s airshow tricks.

Rafale: Exceptionally agile for a 4.5-gen jet, with relaxed stability and powerful flight control systems.

Edge: Su-57 (on paper), though real-world combat utility of post-stall maneuvers is debated.

🎯 Weapons & Targeting

F-22: Uses AIM-9X with helmet-mounted cueing, plus the AIM-120D for beyond visual range. Its sensor fusion and data links are top-tier.

Su-57: Carries R-74M2 and K-77M missiles, with advanced IRST and helmet targeting. But Russian electronics are generally considered less mature.

Rafale: Uses MICA IR and EM missiles, with excellent targeting systems and Spectra EW suite.

Edge: F-22 for integration and reliability; Rafale for versatility.

🧠 Real-World Combat Experience

F-22: Proven in multiple theaters, including Syria. Pilots have extensive training and NATO integration.

Su-57: Limited deployment, mostly in test roles. Few aircraft in service.

Rafale: Combat-tested in Libya, Mali, and Iraq. French pilots are highly trained in mixed-role missions.

Edge: F-22 and Rafale

🧩 Verdict: Who Would Win?

In a dogfight, the F-22 likely wins due to its stealth, sensor fusion, and missile integration. The Su-57 could surprise with agility, but its limited operational maturity and weaker stealth make it vulnerable. The Rafale, while not stealthy, is a dangerous adversary in visual range thanks to its agility and electronic warfare—but it’s outclassed by fifth-gen jets in most metrics.

That said, in a real-world engagement, pilot skill, tactics, and support assets (AWACS, jamming, ground radar) often matter more than raw specs. Want to simulate a specific scenario—say, over the Baltics or Syria—and see how doctrine and terrain shift the outcome?

Simulate over the Baltics...

Alright, let’s drop into a hypothetical dogfight scenario over the Baltics—say, near Estonia or Latvia—where NATO and Russian air patrols might realistically intersect. We’ll simulate a clash between the Su-57 Felon, F-22 Raptor, and Rafale, factoring in terrain, radar environment, and regional doctrine.

🌍 Strategic Context: Baltic Airspace

Terrain: Flat, forested, with coastal radar coverage and NATO AWACS overhead.

Electronic Environment: Dense with jamming, surveillance, and overlapping radar nets.

Rules of Engagement: Likely defensive intercepts escalating to visual-range combat.

🛫 Initial Setup

Su-57 enters from Kaliningrad or western Russia, escorted by MiG-31s or Su-35s.

F-22 is scrambled from NATO bases in Poland or Germany, supported by AWACS and tanker assets.

Rafale is part of a French-led Baltic Air Policing rotation, already airborne.

🔍 Detection Phase

F-22 remains undetected longest due to superior stealth.

Su-57 is picked up earlier by ground radar due to its exposed engine nozzles and less refined shaping.

Rafale is visible but uses Spectra EW suite to spoof and jam incoming radar.

Advantage: F-22 initiates combat on its terms.

🚀 Engagement Phase: Beyond Visual Range

F-22 fires AIM-120D at Su-57 from ~100 km, guided by AWACS.

Su-57 responds with K-77M, but its radar signature makes it vulnerable.

Rafale uses MICA EM missiles and tries to flank using terrain masking.

Outcome: Su-57 likely takes damage early unless it evades aggressively.

🔫 Dogfight Phase: Visual Range

Su-57 uses 3D thrust vectoring to perform high-alpha maneuvers, trying to shake off missile locks.

F-22 maintains energy advantage and uses AIM-9X with helmet cueing.

Rafale dives low, using terrain and Spectra to break locks, then loops back with MICA IR.

Outcome:

If the Su-57 survives the initial volley, it’s dangerous in close quarters.

F-22 dominates with stealth and sensor fusion.

Rafale is the wildcard—less stealthy but agile and EW-savvy.

🧠 Final Verdict: Over the Baltics

F-22 wins in most scenarios due to stealth, superior sensors, and NATO integration.

Su-57 is tactically impressive but suffers from limited numbers and weaker EW.

Rafale punches above its weight, especially with terrain and jamming, but lacks stealth.

Want to tweak the scenario—like adding weather, AWACS loss, or pilot skill asymmetry? We can make this even more real-world gritty.

Russia has a great pilot...

Absolutely—Russia has produced some legendary pilots, and when you factor in elite skill, the Su-57 becomes a much more formidable dogfighter.

Let’s simulate again, but this time assume the Su-57 is flown by a top-tier Russian ace, someone like Sergey Bogdan, the senior test pilot who’s demonstrated extreme aerobatics and post-stall maneuvers at international airshows. He’s known for executing vertical spirals and high-alpha transitions that inspired scenes in Top Gun: Maverick.

🧠 Tactical Shift: Elite Russian Pilot in the Su-57

Situational Awareness: A great pilot can exploit the Su-57’s IRST and passive sensors to detect threats without giving away position.

Maneuver Mastery: Bogdan-style maneuvers—like vertical climbs followed by spiral descents—can break missile locks and force overshoots.

Missile Employment: With helmet-mounted targeting, he can cue R-74M2 missiles at extreme angles, even during evasive turns.

🆚 Updated Baltic Simulation Outcome

F-22 still has stealth and sensor fusion, but now faces a pilot who can anticipate missile trajectories and exploit terrain.

Rafale remains agile and EW-savvy, but risks being outmaneuvered in a turning fight.

Su-57 with an elite pilot becomes a serious threat—especially if it can lure opponents into visual range where its agility shines.

Result: If the Su-57 survives the initial beyond-visual-range exchange, a pilot like Bogdan could flip the script in a dogfight. He might not win every time, but he’d make the engagement far more unpredictable—and potentially lethal for less experienced adversaries.

Want to simulate a scenario where the Su-57 is supported by ground radar or MiG-31s for long-range missile coverage? That could tilt things even further.

Is the F-22 actually deployed to NATO bases in Europe. I thought it was not allowed to leave the US?

Great question—and you're absolutely right that the F-22 Raptor was historically restricted from overseas deployment due to its sensitive stealth technology and maintenance complexity. But that policy has evolved.

✈️ F-22 Deployment to NATO Europe

Yes, the F-22 has been deployed to NATO bases in Europe, including:

Powidz Air Base, Poland (April 2023): 12 Raptors from the 94th Expeditionary Fighter Squadron were sent as part of NATO’s Air Shielding mission.

Ämari Air Base, Estonia (May 2023): Some of those Raptors were forward-deployed to Estonia to reinforce NATO’s eastern flank.

These deployments are part of the Agile Combat Employment (ACE) doctrine, which trains U.S. aircrews to operate from dispersed, minimally supported bases. It’s a strategic shift to counter threats like Russia’s missile reach and electronic warfare capabilities.

🔐 Why the Change?

Geopolitical urgency: The war in Ukraine and rising tensions in the Baltics pushed the U.S. to demonstrate deterrence.

Operational maturity: The F-22’s logistics and support systems have improved, making short-term overseas deployments more feasible.

Strategic signaling: Deploying Raptors sends a clear message of capability and readiness to adversaries.

So while the F-22 still isn’t casually stationed abroad like the F-35, it’s absolutely been forward-deployed when the stakes are high. Want to dig into how these deployments affect Russian air defense posture or NATO’s integrated air shield?

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TOMORROW'S STARTING POINT:

So how fast - or how sloweddown - does a jet fighter need to be going to start defensive maneuvres?

Great question—and the answer depends on the type of maneuver, the aircraft's design, and the energy state (speed + altitude) the pilot wants to preserve or exploit. But let’s break it down:

🛡️ Defensive Maneuver Speed Basics

Minimum speed for maneuvering: Most modern fighters can begin defensive maneuvers at speeds as low as 250–300 knots (460–555 km/h), but this is near the edge of controllability.

Optimal speed range: Defensive maneuvers are typically initiated between 350–450 knots (650–830 km/h), where the aircraft retains enough energy to:

Pull high-G turns

Execute vertical maneuvers

Recover from stalls or post-stall moves

                                                                      

🌀 Why Not Go Too Slow?

Below 250 knots, most jets lose turn authority and risk entering a stall.

Defensive spirals or scissors maneuvers at low speed can work—but only if the pilot is trying to force an overshoot or disengage.

Post-stall maneuvers (like the Cobra or Kulbit) are possible at very low speeds, but they’re risky and situational.

⚖️ Energy Management Is Key

Defensive maneuvering isn’t just about speed—it’s about energy preservation. A pilot wants to trade speed for altitude or angle advantage without becoming a sitting duck. That’s why fighters often “bleed” speed in a controlled way to force an attacker into a bad position, then regain energy to counterattack.

Want to explore how specific maneuvers like the “scissors” or “defensive spiral” work at different speeds? I can walk you through the geometry and tactics.